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Author Topic: Maintaining the Power Plant  (Read 18504 times)

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Týr

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on: 12:40:56 AM 12/01/13

[spoiler]The Power Plant has many blaring issues that make it impossible for humans and undead to maintain or hold. The issue I will be focusing on in this thread is the discrepancy between what it takes for a human to turn the power on, and what it takes for an undead to turn it off.

As it stands now, humans must toggle all of the individual neighbourhoods on, costing as much AP as there are neighbourhoods, which is currently 6. This cost will further increase with the introduction of more neighbourhoods. Meanwhile, undead need only spend 1 AP to turn off all the power to every neighbourhood, with this 1 AP cost never changing.

"But Týr," you say, "Undead must spend AP destroying barricades to get into the power plant in the first place!"
Yes, and humans must spend AP to build these barricades. Humans also need the lights on to build barricades reliably, or they will inevitably be spending more AP to build strong barricades than undead will ever spend tearing them down.

To remedy this issue I have thought up a few alternative systems with the help of human and undead players alike.

Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off.

Alternative 2: Make it so undead must turn individual neighbourhoods off just like humans must turn individual neighbourhoods on.

Alternative 3: Reduce the cost of turning on all neighbourhoods to 1, regardless of how many of the neighbourhoods are and aren't selected.

Alternative 4: Give disabling the power as undead a 50% chance to fail.
>You grasp a large emergency switch as firmly as you can and thrust it downward, but it doesn't budge.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: 12:09:20 AM 12/04/13 by Týr »
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Magus87

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on: 12:50:28 AM 12/01/13
I like the idea of 1,2, and 4.

Make it so that the Individual Neighborhoods are independent of the main breaker.

Example: Undead/Humans can hit the main breaker for 1 AP and turn off individual neighborhoods for 1 AP each (or both even). And then the main breaker has a chance of failure.



Kraufen

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on: 12:53:20 AM 12/01/13
I voted for 1, but I would also vote for 4 to.



Mary

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on: 12:56:16 AM 12/01/13
It takes more AP to get into a barricade than it does to build one.

It's fine as it is.

Also there's no "No change" option in the poll. Which is a bit skewed.
« Last Edit: 01:01:27 AM 12/01/13 by Mary »
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Týr

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on: 01:01:40 AM 12/01/13
It takes more AP to get into a barricade than it does to build one.

It's fine as it is.
It doesn't, actually. Especially if the lights are off.

Actually I'd say it's 50/50 with the lights on.


Also there's no "No change" option in the poll. Which is a bit skewed.
Oh, shit I forgot.
« Last Edit: 01:09:29 AM 12/01/13 by Týr »
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Mary

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on: 01:29:19 AM 12/01/13
It doesn't, actually. Especially if the lights are off.

Actually I'd say it's 50/50 with the lights on.

I'm not human so I can't test it out, and also I'm lazy, so it'd be great if darryl could just tell us :biggrin:
But I'm 82% certain that you have a better chance of building a barricade than destroying it, even as a human with a sledge hammer and deconstruction. Lights off, maybe not I guess? But certainly against an undead with a sledgehammer the rate is about even.


My other point I'd like to make is that humans solely benefit from the power plant being on, and vampires solely benefit but to a lesser degree from the power plant being off. Therefore I feel it SHOULD be harder to get back up and running, because humans should be encouraged to keep it running instead of going to fix it when it's switched off. Not only that but they have the only method of keeping it unenterable by undead with their barricades. Vampires can't turn it off and then barricade it up to make it harder for you to destroy.

The mechanics are fair for the benefits. I do think all the twilight suburbs should be hidden though so it's just serling ones. There was a gigantic list last time I went in there and the power was off.

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Týr

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on: 01:39:16 AM 12/01/13
I'm not human so I can't test it out, and also I'm lazy, so it'd be great if darryl could just tell us :biggrin:
But I'm 82% certain that you have a better chance of building a barricade than destroying it, even as a human with a sledge hammer and deconstruction. Lights off, maybe not I guess? But certainly against an undead with a sledgehammer the rate is about even.
I can give it a test myself in a few minutes when I get AP back. I'll post the event log. Not that one test says anything, but, as an undead and human player I can tell you it's a lot easier to destroy a barricade than it is to build one with the lights off. It's not uncommon to fail 10+ times in a row, and I've never had that happen as undead.

My other point I'd like to make is that humans solely benefit from the power plant being on, and vampires solely benefit but to a lesser degree from the power plant being off. Therefore I feel it SHOULD be harder to get back up and running, because humans should be encouraged to keep it running instead of going to fix it when it's switched off. Not only that but they have the only method of keeping it unenterable by undead with their barricades. Vampires can't turn it off and then barricade it up to make it harder for you to destroy.

The mechanics are fair for the benefits.
Both undead benefit from the lights being off because it means humans are at a disadvantage. This in itself creates and encourages a 2v1 system when it should be a fair 1v1v1 system. While at the power plant, humans are against 2 different enemies on top of having it be more costly to secure the building and maintain power. If it were simply humans vs zombies or vampires, instead of zombies and vampires, I would agree that the current system is fine. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

Undead cannot barricade, but they can prevent humans from barricading by damaging and/or destroying the building. Vampires damage the building while attacking barricades--often leaving it in a stage that humans cannot ignore, and zombies can damage buildings directly.

I do think all the twilight suburbs should be hidden though so it's just serling ones. There was a gigantic list last time I went in there and the power was off.
That was fixed recently.
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Mary

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on: 02:05:35 AM 12/01/13
I can give it a test myself in a few minutes when I get AP back. I'll post the event log. Not that one test says anything, but, as an undead and human player I can tell you it's a lot easier to destroy a barricade than it is to build one with the lights off. It's not uncommon to fail 10+ times in a row, and I've never had that happen as undead.
You don't play undead enough. I get that all the time.
I even complained about it and all mammillionaire had to say was "That must be frustrating" >:(
I'll record my next 100 barricade destruction attempts and post em when I'm done.

Both undead benefit from the lights being off because it means humans are at a disadvantage. This in itself creates and encourages a 2v1 system when it should be a fair 1v1v1 system. While at the power plant, humans are against 2 different enemies on top of having it be more costly to secure the building and maintain power. If it were simply humans vs zombies or vampires, instead of zombies and vampires, I would agree that the current system is fine. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Undead cannot barricade, but they can prevent humans from barricading by damaging and/or destroying the building. Vampires damage the building while attacking barricades--often leaving it in a stage that humans cannot ignore, and zombies can damage buildings directly.
1) Tangenitally. You could say that humans benefit twofold against both enemies when the power is on because they're at an advantage. Humans benefit directly from it. As do vampires.
2) Yeah, they can. I might be wrong but can't you still turn the power back on if the building is ruined? It doesn't stop you from being able to do it like a barricade does (unless I'm wrong).

Vampires damage the building while attacking barricades
Vampires are still so goddamn OP. I hate them so much.
Poor old zombines, nobody loves you except me.

And that's good that that was fixed. I can imagine it being hella annoying.
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Týr

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on: 02:15:53 AM 12/01/13
You don't play undead enough. I get that all the time.
I even complained about it and all mammillionaire had to say was "That must be frustrating" >:(
I'll record my next 100 barricade destruction attempts and post em when I'm done.
I play undead and human pretty evenly actually. I wasn't always human-orientated; Einherjar went undead for quite a while back in the day. All the barricade destruction attempts I've done as undead have been pretty easy, then again I'll re-tune my view after I test this out.

1) Tangenitally. You could say that humans benefit twofold against both enemies when the power is on because they're at an advantage. Humans benefit directly from it. As do vampires.
I'd argue that humans are at what they should be when the power is on, and are inhibited when the power is off. That is to say I don't think humans get a bonus with the lights on, I think they get a malus when the lights are off.

2) Yeah, they can. I might be wrong but can't you still turn the power back on if the building is ruined? It doesn't stop you from being able to do it like a barricade does (unless I'm wrong).
That seems like a moot point to me. If it came down to no barricades and undead vs humans flipping the lights on and off, humans would lose because of the increased AP cost, and that's really what it comes down to. The lights being on or off should be about the actual fight over them, not how much AP it takes to manipulate them.
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Týr

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on: 02:20:34 AM 12/01/13
Alright, here's one go.

Human, lights off and building fully repaired, unbarricaded to extremely heavily barricaded:
[spoiler=Event Log]» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (4 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. It looks as if the barricade is almost too strong to let in other human beings.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (3 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (3 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (3 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (3 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
! The barricade cannot be reinforced further.[/spoiler]
45 actions, 20 successes and 25 failures.

Zombie, using a sledgehammer, extremely heavily barricaded to unbarricaded:
[spoiler=Event Log]You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (2 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect.
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (2 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect.
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (3 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect. (2 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (5 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect. (3 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit.
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect.
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (6 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer and tear it down.[/spoiler]
28 actions, 20 successes and 8 failures.

BONUS:
Human, lights on and building fully repaired, unbarricaded to extremely heavily barricaded:
[spoiler=Event Log]» You look around and find something to help barricade. (4 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (5 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade. It looks as if the barricade is almost too strong to let in other human beings.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (2 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (3 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (3 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
! The barricade cannot be reinforced further. [/spoiler]
26 actions, 20 successes and 6 failures.
« Last Edit: 02:36:51 AM 12/01/13 by Týr »
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Atheist

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on: 02:23:49 AM 12/01/13
"The lights being on or off should be about the actual fight over them, not how much AP it takes to manipulate them."

If that's what you believe why is this your first alternative?

"Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off."




Týr

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on: 02:33:17 AM 12/01/13
"The lights being on or off should be about the actual fight over them, not how much AP it takes to manipulate them."

If that's what you believe why is this your first alternative?

"Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off."
So that it's... even? Therefore the lights being on or off is about the fight to reach the panel rather than how much AP it takes to turn them on or off, as I said.
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dbizzle

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on: 02:38:27 AM 12/01/13


The Power Plant has many blaring issues that make it impossible for humans and undead to maintain or hold. The issue I will be focusing on in this thread is the discrepancy between what it takes for a human to turn the power on, and what it takes for an undead to turn it off.

As it stands now, humans must toggle all of the individual neighbourhoods on, costing as much AP as there are neighbourhoods, which is currently 6. This cost will further increase with the introduction of more neighbourhoods. Meanwhile, undead need only spend 1 AP to turn off all the power to every neighbourhood, with this 1 AP cost never changing.

"But Týr," you say, "Undead must spend AP destroying barricades to get into the power plant in the first place!"
Yes, and humans must spend AP to build these barricades. Humans also need the lights on to build barricades reliably, or they will inevitably be spending more AP to build strong barricades than undead will ever spend tearing them down.

To remedy this issue I have thought up a few alternative systems with the help of human and undead players alike.

Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off.

Alternative 2: Make it so undead must turn individual neighbourhoods off just like humans must turn individual neighbourhoods on.

Alternative 3: Reduce the cost of turning on all neighbourhoods to 1, regardless of how many of the neighbourhoods are and aren't selected.

Alternative 4: Give disabling the power as undead a 50% chance to fail.
>You grasp a large emergency switch as firmly as you can and thrust it downward, but it doesn't budge.

Alternative 5: Athiest is going to sh**post on anything Tyr says.

Everyone notice Alt 3 and 4, 3 which gives humans a boon rather than taking from undead, and 4 which 1/2's the chance of getting it on each try, making on average a loss of 2 AP rather than 6.

Tyr offered solid options, people just happened to want to handicap the undead's expended AP. That was what was voted on, not decided by Tyr.

Deal with it.



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on: 02:39:40 AM 12/01/13
"The lights being on or off should be about the actual fight over them, not how much AP it takes to manipulate them."

If that's what you believe why is this your first alternative?

"Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off."


Ya know what? You are kinda full of shit.
I'm only soso when it comes to tyr's suggestions sometimes, but to leave a group and then proceed to screw them over due to a silly little argument is a bitch thing to do.
I'd expect better from you, you seemed like an alright guy until you pulled this shit. This isn't even about tyr's suggestions anymore and more about you just wanting to be some gigantic ass that wants to create major shitstorms.
Yes I realize that I in turn am causing one myself with this post, but it had to be said.
10/10 would rage again.



dbizzle

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on: 02:44:01 AM 12/01/13
Anyone that agrees with Tyr is his "lacky," Kraufen. Didn't you know that?

Fedora headed atheists know nothing but truth.