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Slimebeast's Projects => Hell Rising => Topic started by: Týr on 12:40:56 AM 12/01/13

Title: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 12:40:56 AM 12/01/13
(http://slimebeast.com/forum/Smileys/default/megaangry.gif)

[spoiler]The Power Plant has many blaring issues that make it impossible for humans and undead to maintain or hold. The issue I will be focusing on in this thread is the discrepancy between what it takes for a human to turn the power on, and what it takes for an undead to turn it off.

As it stands now, humans must toggle all of the individual neighbourhoods on, costing as much AP as there are neighbourhoods, which is currently 6. This cost will further increase with the introduction of more neighbourhoods. Meanwhile, undead need only spend 1 AP to turn off all the power to every neighbourhood, with this 1 AP cost never changing.

"But Týr," you say, "Undead must spend AP destroying barricades to get into the power plant in the first place!"
Yes, and humans must spend AP to build these barricades. Humans also need the lights on to build barricades reliably, or they will inevitably be spending more AP to build strong barricades than undead will ever spend tearing them down.

To remedy this issue I have thought up a few alternative systems with the help of human and undead players alike.

Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off.

Alternative 2: Make it so undead must turn individual neighbourhoods off just like humans must turn individual neighbourhoods on.

Alternative 3: Reduce the cost of turning on all neighbourhoods to 1, regardless of how many of the neighbourhoods are and aren't selected.

Alternative 4: Give disabling the power as undead a 50% chance to fail.
>You grasp a large emergency switch as firmly as you can and thrust it downward, but it doesn't budge.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Magus87 on 12:50:28 AM 12/01/13
I like the idea of 1,2, and 4.

Make it so that the Individual Neighborhoods are independent of the main breaker.

Example: Undead/Humans can hit the main breaker for 1 AP and turn off individual neighborhoods for 1 AP each (or both even). And then the main breaker has a chance of failure.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Kraufen on 12:53:20 AM 12/01/13
I voted for 1, but I would also vote for 4 to.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 12:56:16 AM 12/01/13
It takes more AP to get into a barricade than it does to build one.

It's fine as it is.

Also there's no "No change" option in the poll. Which is a bit skewed.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 01:01:40 AM 12/01/13
It takes more AP to get into a barricade than it does to build one.

It's fine as it is.
It doesn't, actually. Especially if the lights are off.

Actually I'd say it's 50/50 with the lights on.


Also there's no "No change" option in the poll. Which is a bit skewed.
Oh, shit I forgot.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 01:29:19 AM 12/01/13
It doesn't, actually. Especially if the lights are off.

Actually I'd say it's 50/50 with the lights on.

I'm not human so I can't test it out, and also I'm lazy, so it'd be great if darryl could just tell us :biggrin:
But I'm 82% certain that you have a better chance of building a barricade than destroying it, even as a human with a sledge hammer and deconstruction. Lights off, maybe not I guess? But certainly against an undead with a sledgehammer the rate is about even.


My other point I'd like to make is that humans solely benefit from the power plant being on, and vampires solely benefit but to a lesser degree from the power plant being off. Therefore I feel it SHOULD be harder to get back up and running, because humans should be encouraged to keep it running instead of going to fix it when it's switched off. Not only that but they have the only method of keeping it unenterable by undead with their barricades. Vampires can't turn it off and then barricade it up to make it harder for you to destroy.

The mechanics are fair for the benefits. I do think all the twilight suburbs should be hidden though so it's just serling ones. There was a gigantic list last time I went in there and the power was off.

Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 01:39:16 AM 12/01/13
I'm not human so I can't test it out, and also I'm lazy, so it'd be great if darryl could just tell us :biggrin:
But I'm 82% certain that you have a better chance of building a barricade than destroying it, even as a human with a sledge hammer and deconstruction. Lights off, maybe not I guess? But certainly against an undead with a sledgehammer the rate is about even.
I can give it a test myself in a few minutes when I get AP back. I'll post the event log. Not that one test says anything, but, as an undead and human player I can tell you it's a lot easier to destroy a barricade than it is to build one with the lights off. It's not uncommon to fail 10+ times in a row, and I've never had that happen as undead.

My other point I'd like to make is that humans solely benefit from the power plant being on, and vampires solely benefit but to a lesser degree from the power plant being off. Therefore I feel it SHOULD be harder to get back up and running, because humans should be encouraged to keep it running instead of going to fix it when it's switched off. Not only that but they have the only method of keeping it unenterable by undead with their barricades. Vampires can't turn it off and then barricade it up to make it harder for you to destroy.

The mechanics are fair for the benefits.
Both undead benefit from the lights being off because it means humans are at a disadvantage. This in itself creates and encourages a 2v1 system when it should be a fair 1v1v1 system. While at the power plant, humans are against 2 different enemies on top of having it be more costly to secure the building and maintain power. If it were simply humans vs zombies or vampires, instead of zombies and vampires, I would agree that the current system is fine. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

Undead cannot barricade, but they can prevent humans from barricading by damaging and/or destroying the building. Vampires damage the building while attacking barricades--often leaving it in a stage that humans cannot ignore, and zombies can damage buildings directly.

I do think all the twilight suburbs should be hidden though so it's just serling ones. There was a gigantic list last time I went in there and the power was off.
That was fixed recently.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 02:05:35 AM 12/01/13
I can give it a test myself in a few minutes when I get AP back. I'll post the event log. Not that one test says anything, but, as an undead and human player I can tell you it's a lot easier to destroy a barricade than it is to build one with the lights off. It's not uncommon to fail 10+ times in a row, and I've never had that happen as undead.
You don't play undead enough. I get that all the time.
I even complained about it and all mammillionaire had to say was "That must be frustrating" >:(
I'll record my next 100 barricade destruction attempts and post em when I'm done.

Both undead benefit from the lights being off because it means humans are at a disadvantage. This in itself creates and encourages a 2v1 system when it should be a fair 1v1v1 system. While at the power plant, humans are against 2 different enemies on top of having it be more costly to secure the building and maintain power. If it were simply humans vs zombies or vampires, instead of zombies and vampires, I would agree that the current system is fine. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Undead cannot barricade, but they can prevent humans from barricading by damaging and/or destroying the building. Vampires damage the building while attacking barricades--often leaving it in a stage that humans cannot ignore, and zombies can damage buildings directly.
1) Tangenitally. You could say that humans benefit twofold against both enemies when the power is on because they're at an advantage. Humans benefit directly from it. As do vampires.
2) Yeah, they can. I might be wrong but can't you still turn the power back on if the building is ruined? It doesn't stop you from being able to do it like a barricade does (unless I'm wrong).

Vampires damage the building while attacking barricades
Vampires are still so goddamn OP. I hate them so much.
Poor old zombines, nobody loves you except me.

And that's good that that was fixed. I can imagine it being hella annoying.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 02:15:53 AM 12/01/13
You don't play undead enough. I get that all the time.
I even complained about it and all mammillionaire had to say was "That must be frustrating" >:(
I'll record my next 100 barricade destruction attempts and post em when I'm done.
I play undead and human pretty evenly actually. I wasn't always human-orientated; Einherjar went undead for quite a while back in the day. All the barricade destruction attempts I've done as undead have been pretty easy, then again I'll re-tune my view after I test this out.

1) Tangenitally. You could say that humans benefit twofold against both enemies when the power is on because they're at an advantage. Humans benefit directly from it. As do vampires.
I'd argue that humans are at what they should be when the power is on, and are inhibited when the power is off. That is to say I don't think humans get a bonus with the lights on, I think they get a malus when the lights are off.

2) Yeah, they can. I might be wrong but can't you still turn the power back on if the building is ruined? It doesn't stop you from being able to do it like a barricade does (unless I'm wrong).
That seems like a moot point to me. If it came down to no barricades and undead vs humans flipping the lights on and off, humans would lose because of the increased AP cost, and that's really what it comes down to. The lights being on or off should be about the actual fight over them, not how much AP it takes to manipulate them.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 02:20:34 AM 12/01/13
Alright, here's one go.

Human, lights off and building fully repaired, unbarricaded to extremely heavily barricaded:
[spoiler=Event Log]» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (4 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. It looks as if the barricade is almost too strong to let in other human beings.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (3 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (2 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (3 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with. (3 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (3 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
! The barricade cannot be reinforced further.[/spoiler]
45 actions, 20 successes and 25 failures.

Zombie, using a sledgehammer, extremely heavily barricaded to unbarricaded:
[spoiler=Event Log]You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (2 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect.
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (2 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect.
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (3 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect. (2 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (5 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect. (3 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit.
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. There is no visible effect.
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer. It seems to give out a bit. (6 times)
You bludgeon the barricade with your Sledgehammer and tear it down.[/spoiler]
28 actions, 20 successes and 8 failures.

BONUS:
Human, lights on and building fully repaired, unbarricaded to extremely heavily barricaded:
[spoiler=Event Log]» You look around and find something to help barricade. (4 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (5 times)
» You look around and find something to help barricade. It looks as if the barricade is almost too strong to let in other human beings.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (2 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (3 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade. (3 times)
» You can't seem to find anything to barricade with.
» You look around and find something to help barricade.
! The barricade cannot be reinforced further. [/spoiler]
26 actions, 20 successes and 6 failures.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 02:23:49 AM 12/01/13
"The lights being on or off should be about the actual fight over them, not how much AP it takes to manipulate them."

If that's what you believe why is this your first alternative?

"Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off."

Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 02:33:17 AM 12/01/13
"The lights being on or off should be about the actual fight over them, not how much AP it takes to manipulate them."

If that's what you believe why is this your first alternative?

"Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off."
So that it's... even? Therefore the lights being on or off is about the fight to reach the panel rather than how much AP it takes to turn them on or off, as I said.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 02:38:27 AM 12/01/13


The Power Plant has many blaring issues that make it impossible for humans and undead to maintain or hold. The issue I will be focusing on in this thread is the discrepancy between what it takes for a human to turn the power on, and what it takes for an undead to turn it off.

As it stands now, humans must toggle all of the individual neighbourhoods on, costing as much AP as there are neighbourhoods, which is currently 6. This cost will further increase with the introduction of more neighbourhoods. Meanwhile, undead need only spend 1 AP to turn off all the power to every neighbourhood, with this 1 AP cost never changing.

"But Týr," you say, "Undead must spend AP destroying barricades to get into the power plant in the first place!"
Yes, and humans must spend AP to build these barricades. Humans also need the lights on to build barricades reliably, or they will inevitably be spending more AP to build strong barricades than undead will ever spend tearing them down.

To remedy this issue I have thought up a few alternative systems with the help of human and undead players alike.

Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off.

Alternative 2: Make it so undead must turn individual neighbourhoods off just like humans must turn individual neighbourhoods on.

Alternative 3: Reduce the cost of turning on all neighbourhoods to 1, regardless of how many of the neighbourhoods are and aren't selected.

Alternative 4: Give disabling the power as undead a 50% chance to fail.
>You grasp a large emergency switch as firmly as you can and thrust it downward, but it doesn't budge.

Alternative 5: Athiest is going to sh**post on anything Tyr says.

Everyone notice Alt 3 and 4, 3 which gives humans a boon rather than taking from undead, and 4 which 1/2's the chance of getting it on each try, making on average a loss of 2 AP rather than 6.

Tyr offered solid options, people just happened to want to handicap the undead's expended AP. That was what was voted on, not decided by Tyr.

Deal with it.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Kraufen on 02:39:40 AM 12/01/13
"The lights being on or off should be about the actual fight over them, not how much AP it takes to manipulate them."

If that's what you believe why is this your first alternative?

"Alternative 1: Make it cost as much AP as there are powered neighbourhoods for undead to turn the power off."


Ya know what? You are kinda full of shit.
I'm only soso when it comes to tyr's suggestions sometimes, but to leave a group and then proceed to screw them over due to a silly little argument is a bitch thing to do.
I'd expect better from you, you seemed like an alright guy until you pulled this shit. This isn't even about tyr's suggestions anymore and more about you just wanting to be some gigantic ass that wants to create major shitstorms.
Yes I realize that I in turn am causing one myself with this post, but it had to be said.
10/10 would rage again.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 02:44:01 AM 12/01/13
Anyone that agrees with Tyr is his "lacky," Kraufen. Didn't you know that?

Fedora headed atheists know nothing but truth.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 02:46:46 AM 12/01/13
Ya know what? You are kinda full of shit.
I'm only soso when it comes to tyr's suggestions sometimes, but to leave a group and then proceed to screw them over due to a silly little argument is a bitch thing to do.
I'd expect better from you, you seemed like an alright guy until you pulled this shit. This isn't even about tyr's suggestions anymore and more about you just wanting to be some gigantic ass that wants to create major shitstorms.
Yes I realize that I in turn am causing one myself with this post, but it had to be said.
10/10 would rage again.

And how did I screw over the group again?  I left the group and took my character to the other side of the city.   I guess if that's "screwing over the group," so be it?  But the Bastard's Battalion wasn't being run by the person who started it, so why would I continue being part of a group that are just lackeys for Tyr's group?

And yes, it is about Tyr's suggestion.  Its a blatant and obvious play to give advantages to humans.  By Tyr.  Yet again.

That said, there ARE other suggestions of his that I've publicly agreed with him on.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Slimebeast on 02:50:56 AM 12/01/13
Being an atheist has nothing to do with being an asshole, internet.

Also, Grover is fucking wasted in that clip. "It's ... a circle."
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 02:52:38 AM 12/01/13
False. We could go into specifics, get detailed, and perhaps this thread will go in that direction.

But I must stress the fact that we agreed with his suggestions NOT because we want to give humans advantage, but because it's the most reasonable way to maintain the plant. We feel that way, each of us, and we'll find out whether that's the case or not once it's in play.

I don't think Tyr's doing this to be pro human, but even if he is, this is the logical resolution to an issue and both he and the rest of us agree with it. So stop trying to make it personal.

You cry too much, princess.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 02:54:44 AM 12/01/13
Being an atheist has nothing to do with being an asshole, internet.

Also, Grover is fucking wasted in that clip. "It's ... a circle."

My bad, Slimebeast. You're quite right. Cheers buddy.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 02:56:18 AM 12/01/13
False. We could go into specifics, get detailed, and perhaps this thread will go in that direction.

The type of statement someone who can't go into specific and get detailed often makes.


You cry too much, princess.

And you suck Tyr's e-cock like a champ, queenie.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Kraufen on 02:59:13 AM 12/01/13
And how did I screw over the group again?  I left the group and took my character to the other side of the city.   I guess if that's "screwing over the group," so be it?  But the Bastard's Battalion wasn't being run by the person who started it, so why would I continue being part of a group that are just lackeys for Tyr's group?

And yes, it is about Tyr's suggestion.  Its a blatant and obvious play to give advantages to humans.  By Tyr.  Yet again.

That said, there ARE other suggestions of his that I've publicly agreed with him on.
You are perhaps not screwing with us as Atheist but by god you know what I mean.
Anyways beyond that, is any thing that benefits human's in any way bad? I don't get it. If we went for lets say option 4, the most the undead would ever have to spend would be maybe max 3 ap. To shut off all the power everywhere, whereas humans would still need 6 ap to put it all back on.
Its not much of a bloody hindrance and it makes the game more balanced as its already almost impossible to protect the damn building in the first place. Its got 4 entrances meaning an attack can come from all sides. Its why malls are such shit places to hold to. It would still be hard to protect anyways
Just so you know, yes I'm currently playing human, but I have had characters of every race. Its seriously way to easy to mess with the power. Honestly if it wouldn't hinder the game, I'd be back to murdering just about everyone.

As for as leadership of their group goes, they are not the lackeys of Einherjar. We set up a place where humans can be safe and work together. Its what needs to be done to survive. Sitting alone in some building is gonna get everyone killed. Its not like Tyr orders them to do shit. They just help out.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 03:01:45 AM 12/01/13
The type of statement someone who can't go into specific and get detailed often makes.


And you suck Tyr's e-cock like a champ, queenie.

Oh, so rather than accept a summarized argument, you just say "NOPE" with no real rebuttal?

You're a special sort of special.
I can hear the sobbing all the way from my home in the U.S., and damn, I never realized you terrorists could cry so much.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Slimebeast on 03:03:48 AM 12/01/13
You guys know there's a clear-cut poll, right?
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 03:06:13 AM 12/01/13
You guys know there's a clear-cut poll, right?

Haha so I don't need to argue anymore?
Point taken Slimebeast. I'll let Atheist have the last word in this thread.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 03:08:59 AM 12/01/13
And yes, it is about Tyr's suggestion.  Its a blatant and obvious play to give advantages to humans.  By Tyr.  Yet again.
I don't... I don't think these words mean what you think they mean.

You can't even back up your points. You're just sitting down spouting that I'm only trying to make the game easier for humans, yet you haven't given a shred of proof or a solid reason that backs up this claim.

You're a complete waste of time and effort and until you say something meaningful I'm just going to ignore you entirely--and I encourage everyone else to do the same.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 03:12:05 AM 12/01/13
You are perhaps not screwing with us as Atheist but by god you know what I mean.

I really have no idea what you mean.  Are you talking about alts?  I've got one alt that is on the other side of the map and another that's still part of the Battalion.  So please elaborate on exactly how I've been screwing over the group again instead of making vague accusations without any sort of substance behind them.

Anyways beyond that, is any thing that benefits human's in any way bad?

Yes.  Because humans have insane advantages, whether people want to recognize them or not. (Mostly not so they can continue bitching about how weak humans are, when in fact they're the most powerful and diverse species in the game.)

Its not much of a bloody hindrance and it makes the game more balanced as its already almost impossible to protect the damn building in the first place.

That's just part of the game, dude.  Its a survival horror game, not a shack up in a hole and hide game.    You're going to have to continually keep an eye on things and re-barricade and maintain your shelter if you want to survive the monsters roaming the streets.  Some shelters its going to be harder to maintain, but the benefits of doing so are greater.  Such as the power plant.  Or the fort, where you have easy access to most of the things humans need to survive in one 9 square area with only one way in or out.  Sure that forces/lets the enemy concentrate their efforts on one spot, but they could just as easily do that at the power plant.

Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 03:14:17 AM 12/01/13
I don't... I don't think these words mean what you think they mean.

You can't even back up your points. You're just sitting down spouting that I'm only trying to make the game easier for humans, yet you haven't given a shred of proof or a solid reason that backs up this claim.

You're a complete waste of time and effort and until you say something meaningful I'm just going to ignore you entirely--and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

I've repeatedly backed up my points in other threads.  You know, those other threads where you also make suggestions that ONLY benefit humans?  I'm not going to sit here and repeat them over and over in redundancy.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 03:16:31 AM 12/01/13
Oh, so rather than accept a summarized argument, you just say "NOPE" with no real rebuttal?

You're a special sort of special.
I can hear the sobbing all the way from my home in the U.S., and damn, I never realized you terrorists could cry so much.

What summarized argument was that again?   Oh right, I forgot.   The one you didn't post because you don't have one.

And yes, I'm sobbing super hard that some moron doesn't like me on the internet.  Oh, woe is me!  WOE I SAY!
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 03:19:45 AM 12/01/13
What summarized argument was that again?   Oh right, I forgot.   The one you didn't post because you don't have one.

And yes, I'm sobbing super hard that some moron doesn't like me on the internet.  Oh, woe is me!  WOE I SAY!

You're off point. I didn't say I didn't like you, you can cry about that all you want, but I definitely don't agree with you and you're a child for arguing about it to this extent.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 03:21:44 AM 12/01/13
You're off point. I didn't say I didn't like you, you can cry about that all you want, but I definitely don't agree with you and you're a child for arguing about it to this extent.

Essentially calling someone a "foreign terrorist" insinuates a certain amount of dislike.

Yet here you are arguing with me, tit for tat.  What's that make you?
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Kraufen on 03:23:39 AM 12/01/13
I really have no idea what you mean.  Are you talking about alts?  I've got one alt that is on the other side of the map and another that's still part of the Battalion.  So please elaborate on exactly how I've been screwing over the group again instead of making vague accusations without any sort of substance behind them.

Yes.  Because humans have insane advantages, whether people want to recognize them or not. (Mostly not so they can continue bitching about how weak humans are, when in fact they're the most powerful and diverse species in the game.)

That's just part of the game, dude.  Its a survival horror game, not a shack up in a hole and hide game.    You're going to have to continually keep an eye on things and re-barricade and maintain your shelter if you want to survive the monsters roaming the streets.  Some shelters its going to be harder to maintain, but the benefits of doing so are greater.  Such as the power plant.  Or the fort, where you have easy access to most of the things humans need to survive in one 9 square area with only one way in or out.  Sure that forces/lets the enemy concentrate their efforts on one spot, but they could just as easily do that at the power plant.
Well Mo said to not argue bout this, so I won't.
I'll only say this
Yes human's have certain advantages, just as other races.
Damage wise however, they are not the strongest. Sure they can work together and heal, but do least damage at their top level.
Vampires, especially well organized vampires can mean certain death for most humans. We haven't seen any of that because none of them are actually trying very hard.
Zombies can literally hide anywhere on the map.

I understand its supposed to be survival horror, but what is a few extra ap to you, Isn't it supposed to be the same for all races? Hard to survive?
Anyways enough of this. Slime wants us to stop arguing so that will happen.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 03:25:22 AM 12/01/13
Essentially calling someone a "foreign terrorist" insinuates a certain amount of dislike.

Yet here you are arguing with me, tit for tat.  What's that make you?

No, it insinuates embellishment. You're obviously not a terrorist you twit, and on the infinitesimally small chance you are there's not much I can do about it.

And that makes me someone who's just responding to each one of your replies, hoping you can calm down a little.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 03:26:11 AM 12/01/13
Anyways enough of this. Slime wants us to stop arguing so that will happen.

Merghh kk, I'm walking away from this for real this time.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Zman090 on 03:28:00 AM 12/01/13
Can we all shut the fuck up right now? I'm really getting sick of this.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 03:32:32 AM 12/01/13
I understand its supposed to be survival horror, but what is a few extra ap to you, Isn't it supposed to be the same for all races? Hard to survive?
Anyways enough of this. Slime wants us to stop arguing so that will happen.

I might have agreed that the AP wasn't as important until the cost to stand changed. 

The few extra AP are pretty important now.  Especially for zombies, who are currently spending 1/5 of their AP just to stand up.  And they have to spend even more if the player actively chooses to stand as a zombie instead of human.  Yes it should be hard to survive, but leaving zombies at such an obvious AP disadvantage isn't really "surviving" as much as it is giving an edge to the other races.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 03:35:56 AM 12/01/13
but what is a few extra ap to you, Isn't it supposed to be the same for all races?

AP isn't equal between races. Why should AP costs?
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 03:42:11 AM 12/01/13
No, it insinuates embellishment. You're obviously not a terrorist you twit, and on the infinitesimally small chance you are there's not much I can do about it.

And that makes me someone who's just responding to each one of your replies, hoping you can calm down a little.

Name-calling = "hoping you can calm down a little"

Sure thing bud.  Sure thing.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Zman090 on 03:44:40 AM 12/01/13
Ok now done can we please stop alright thanks.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 03:46:32 AM 12/01/13
I'm gonna go ahead and refute Atheist's points. Discussions and debates are healthy for the soul. I just hope he doesn't resort to calling me names and using strings of expletives again.

Yes.  Because humans have insane advantages, whether people want to recognize them or not. (Mostly not so they can continue bitching about how weak humans are, when in fact they're the most powerful and diverse species in the game.)
Every race has "insane advantages". They also all have disadvantages. Some more than others.

Humans are glass cannons. They do a lot of damage1 but have the lowest health and survivability. Their high damage1 comes at a cost of requiring resources and they make up for their lack of health by being able to put a literal wall between them and their enemies.

Zombies are tanks. They do a medium amount of damage ridiculously accurately, and can cause damage indirectly, and have the highest health. To balance this out, they have the least amount of action points, and to make up for their low amount of action points they can hide anywhere and trick players into passing over them and thereby have the highest survivability. ... And to make up, yet again, for their low amount of action points, they can, as stated, cause damage indirectly.

Vampires are... somewhere in the middle I guess. They deal a medium amount of damage somewhat accurately and can tank pretty well by constantly healing. They have skills that improve their survivability, being able to actually shrug off damage. They have skills that improve their strength by being able to work their way up to dealing 20 damage consistently. They have to spend the least amount of effort finding targets. To top it off, they can also hide--they aren't the best hiders, but they can hide.


Please point out some "insane advantages" that humans get to hold over undead heads that don't get checked by an undead counter or clear disadvantage.


1. Humans are supposed to do the most damage2, but recent damage-increasing skills for all three races have trumped this and thrown humans off course.
2. I don't actually know if this is the case. I can only assume so due to the evidence presented in the broken combat triangle this game offers.


That's just part of the game, dude.  Its a survival horror game, not a shack up in a hole and hide game.    You're going to have to continually keep an eye on things and re-barricade and maintain your shelter if you want to survive the monsters roaming the streets.  Some shelters its going to be harder to maintain, but the benefits of doing so are greater.  Such as the power plant.  Or the fort, where you have easy access to most of the things humans need to survive in one 9 square area with only one way in or out.  Sure that forces/lets the enemy concentrate their efforts on one spot, but they could just as easily do that at the power plant.
Multi-tile buildings are impossible to hold. That's the point. It's not that they're difficult to hold or maintain, it's that they're impossible to hold or maintain--as in, it cannot be done.


I might have agreed that the AP wasn't as important until the cost to stand changed. 

The few extra AP are pretty important now.  Especially for zombies, who are currently spending 1/5 of their AP just stand up.  And they have to spend even more if the player actively chooses to stand as a zombie instead of human.  Yes it should be hard to survive, but leaving zombies at such an obvious AP disadvantage isn't really "surviving" as much as it is giving an edge to the other races.
I'm a zombie right now. I'm having the time of my life. I don't have to worry about anything.

HP? It comes, albeit slowly, but it does. I can supplement with some easy-to-find items if I wanted to.
AP? I got revived and chose to be zombie so I could relax. I got up and promptly face-planted in the same place to let my AP recharge and went off to do some IRL stuff. I can face-plant anywhere and the chance of someone finding me is practically nil because I know how to be a good zombie.
Kills? I've actually gotten the most kills as a zombie in a streak than I ever have as a human or a vampire. Being able to hide literally anywhere makes it easy to stalk people or wait for the perfect moment to come out and snatch up a straggler.

Being a zombie is easy. Being a vampire is easy. Being a human is not easy.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 04:06:03 AM 12/01/13
Please point out some "insane advantages" that humans get to hold over undead heads that don't get checked by an undead counter or clear disadvantage.

Group healing, wider variety of available healing items, healing items don't have a "chance" of working like feeding on corpses does, easier time finding healing items, being able to fortify a position, causing others to have to spend AP to get to them before they can attack them.  (Yes they have to spend AP to build, but they also get to recharge said AP while waiting for whatever is tearing at the barricades.  And they can keep working on the barricades WHILE they're being taken down if they want to.) 

Aside from that, there's also more frivolous little fun things that humans can do to.  Like messing with the TV station or leaving messages (sometimes rather rude and negative messages about other players even) everywhere in the game.


Multi-tile buildings are impossible to hold. That's the point. It's not that they're difficult to hold or maintain, it's that they're impossible to hold or maintain--as in, it cannot be done.

This statement is purely your opinion and not a fact.  Why you think it refutes anything I've said is beyond me.

I got revived and chose to be zombie so I could relax. I got up and promptly face-planted in the same place to let my AP recharge and went off to do some IRL stuff.

How does this mean anything to anyone else?  Just because you chose to stand then immediately face-plant (because you had IRL stuff) does not mean the next person to come along has IRL stuff to attend to.  They could have just sat down to play, and immediately they're at 40 AP or 35 AP if they have the choice to stand.  That's likely to be burned through pretty quickly if you want to do anything at all.

I can face-plant anywhere and the chance of someone finding me is practically nil because I know how to be a good zombie.

Okay.  But how does your bragging about how good you are mean anything to the game?  The chance of someone finding you is just as great as anyone else playing a zombie laying in the open.  How is this game-relevant again?

Kills? I've actually gotten the most kills as a zombie in a streak than I ever have as a human or a vampire. Being able to hide literally anywhere makes it easy to stalk people or wait for the perfect moment to come out and snatch up a straggler.

That's nice.  Not everyone has the time to sit here refreshing repeatedly to see if someone has landed on the tile we're hiding on so they can sneak attack them.

Being a zombie is easy. Being a vampire is easy. Being a human is not easy.

Pure opinion, not fact.  How does this refute anything?
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 04:16:52 AM 12/01/13
Being a zombie is easy. Being a vampire is easy. Being a human is not easy.
No, no, no. Especially not so for vampires recently.
And it really is statements like that that make me doubt your self-exclaimed neutral stance on race balance.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Kraufen on 04:19:11 AM 12/01/13
No, no, no. Especially not so for vampires recently.
And it really is statements like that that make me doubt your self-exclaimed neutral stance on race balance.
My vampire alt hasn't died in three days, and only died because I left him out in the open
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 04:30:09 AM 12/01/13
And? I have a human alt that hasn't died in a week. Yet my zombie character has died 3 times tonight while hiding.

Anecdotal evidence isn't useful.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Kraufen on 04:42:39 AM 12/01/13
I've killed you when you are hiding.
For one you are hiding rather close to places where we would look and close to the fort.
Its not that zombies suck or something, its because you need to pick better places to hide.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 04:47:54 AM 12/01/13
[spoiler=Responses to Atheist]
Group healing,
Required for survival due to the fact that humans have to actively search for healing supplies and cannot heal by attacking like undead can.
wider variety of available healing items,
Wider variety, but most heal very small amounts that aren't usually worth the AP to find and consume them.
healing items don't have a "chance" of working like feeding on corpses does
Required for survival. Humans cannot heal as they attack like undead can, and therefore cannot heal during combat like undead can. This means humans can only realistically heal in between engagements and must also actively search for healing items.
easier time finding healing items
Subjective. Undead don't have to find healing items because they can heal by attacking.
being able to fortify a position, causing others to have to spend AP to get to them before they can attack them.
Required for survival. Human hiding spots are the most obvious hiding spots and humans are forced into certain buildings for supplies. Being able to fortify those buildings is necessary. Undead are not reliant on the map like humans are.
Aside from that, there's also more frivolous little fun things that humans can do to.  Like messing with the TV station or leaving messages (sometimes rather rude and negative messages about other players even) everywhere in the game.
These aren't advantages, these are perks.
This statement is purely your opinion and not a fact.  Why you think it refutes anything I've said is beyond me.
It's a fact alright. You will soon discover that should you ever try to hold a multi-tile building yourself.
How does this mean anything to anyone else?  Just because you chose to stand then immediately face-plant (because you had IRL stuff) does not mean the next person to come along has IRL stuff to attend to.  They could have just sat down to play, and immediately they're at 40 AP or 35 AP if they have the choice to stand.  That's likely to be burned through pretty quickly if you want to do anything at all.
This is a game where you're meant to play as what you are converted into. If you want to pick and choose, then take the hit. Or don't, and play the cards you've been dealt.
Okay.  But how does your bragging about how good you are mean anything to the game?  The chance of someone finding you is just as great as anyone else playing a zombie laying in the open. How is this game-relevant again?
False. Believe it or not, there's actually a point where skill and experience comes into play in the game.
That's nice.  Not everyone has the time to sit here refreshing repeatedly to see if someone has landed on the tile we're hiding on so they can sneak attack them.
That's only one situation where a sneak attack can be applied. There are more.
Pure opinion, not fact.  How does this refute anything?
I didn't claim it was meant to.[/spoiler]


No, no, no. Especially not so for vampires recently.
And it really is statements like that that make me doubt your self-exclaimed neutral stance on race balance.
Believe it or not, I play all the races about equally. It is by far the least easiest and the most stressful to survive as a human. Zombie and vampires have a far more easier time staying alive.

The amount of things you have to worry about to survive as a human greatly outnumber the amount of things you have to worry about to survive as undead. In fact, I don't think undead really have anything they have to worry about to survive. Vampires need to have the lights off to hide, but that is about it. Am I forgetting some things?

A zombie can run off into one of the un-populated neighbourhoods and drop dead in a random street and I can guarantee you they will survive for days if not weeks.
A vampire can run off and hide in any of the buildings and survive for at least a few days.
A human cannot. I have had human alts attempt to survive on their own in the other neighbourhoods and they have died overnight every time. Vampire skills means you can't leave the building unbarricaded, but barricading the building pretty much tells every passing zombie and vampire that you're inside. It's a lose-lose situation--and something undead don't have to ever worry about.

Also, Mary, I've gotten you killed a bunch recently because you considered it a good idea to hide right next to a bustling human territory that gets combed regularly for hiding zeds.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 04:51:15 AM 12/01/13
Yeah, zombie hiding isn't infallible. It doesn't mean that suck but just because they have it doesn't mean they're easy. Ya get what I'm saying?
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 05:13:54 AM 12/01/13
Yeah, zombie hiding isn't infallible. It doesn't mean that suck but just because they have it doesn't mean they're easy. Ya get what I'm saying?
I get it. I'm just saying that zombies are the best hiders, followed by humans, with vampires being the worst.

Theoretically that should make vampires the hardest to play as, but it doesn't. It's not just hiding we're talking about. I mean, human hiding isn't even that good because of the way it has to be utilised. You can't hide to stay out of sight and avoid confrontation--hiding can only be used to make your opponent waste an extra 3-4 AP searching for you. That's the major flaw. This is not the case for zombies. Zombie hiding actually helps you avoid confrontation.

It's kind of backwards really. Vampires should be the best hiders since they rely on darkness and the map is always dark, minus electricity.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 05:14:13 AM 12/01/13
"Required for survival due to the fact that humans have to actively search for healing supplies and cannot heal by attacking like undead can."

I like how you ignore that undead only have a chance to heal during an attack.  Its by no means guaranteed they will heal when they hit with their teeth.  Undead have to search for corpses to feed from outside of combat, and that's only a chance to feed.  Vampires have to search for hearts for healing outside of combat and blood if they want to remove infection.   

"Wider variety, but most heal very small amounts that aren't usually worth the AP to find and consume them."

Until you get the skill that improves your healing.

Required for survival. Humans cannot heal as they attack like undead can, and therefore cannot heal during combat like undead can. This means humans can only realistically heal in between engagements and must also actively search for healing items.

You can hit the Use button any time you have AP and use a medkit, whether you are in or out of combat.  You don't have to be outside of combat to use them.  (And remember, humans have more AP, so its less of a waste to use one than it would be say, for a zombie to use brains.)

"Subjective. Undead don't have to find healing items because they can heal by attacking."

Once again, this is by no means a guaranteed heal.  "Can heal" is not the same as "does heal."  Its only a possibility of healing that doesn't happen 100% of the time.  And as I have previously stated, vampires MUST search for blood bags to prevent themselves from dying due to zombie infection.

"Required for survival. Human hiding spots are the most obvious hiding spots and humans are forced into certain buildings for supplies. Being able to fortify those buildings is necessary. Undead are not reliant on the map like humans are."

Barricades on a building are by no means a guaranteed indicator of human presence.  Suggesting otherwise is just being silly.

"These aren't advantages, these are perks."

Yes, I said they were frivolous.  But they are more frivolous perks and side things to enjoy than other species get.

"It's a fact alright. You will soon discover that should you ever try to hold a multi-tile building yourself."

I've done it in the past, and rather easily (until I was ganged up on.)  The point is, as a human, you shouldn't be trying to hold ANY building by yourself.  That's why they work better in groups.  A group of humans can (not guaranteed but it is possible)  hold a multi-tile location.  Saying its a fact they can't is just plain wrong.

"This is a game where you're meant to play as what you are converted into. If you want to pick and choose, then take the hit. Or don't, and play the cards you've been dealt."

Then you shouldn't have the option to be something else when you rise.  But since you do, and you've already put in the effort to gain that ability through gameplay, it shouldn't then cost you more to keep using that ability.  For example:  Humans can upgrade their ability to heal themselves to double what they can when they start the game.  But they aren't charged each time the use this ability, even though it cuts down on the amount of AP they have to use to heal.

"False. Believe it or not, there's actually a point where skill and experience comes into play in the game."

No doubt there is.  But where you randomly hide your zombie isn't one of them.  Sorry to tell you.  You can sit here and say, "well you shouldn't hide it so close to so and so."  But where in the game does it tell you what "territory" is held by who?  How are you supposed to determine what the "less trafficked" areas of the map are?  Its luck that you don't get found, plain and simple.  Suggesting its some sort of skill that a random player doesn't randomly come across you is just silly.


Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 05:41:45 AM 12/01/13
Oh jeez. There are so many things wrong with what I'm about to refute that I almost don't have the energy.

[spoiler=Responses to Atheist]
"Required for survival due to the fact that humans have to actively search for healing supplies and cannot heal by attacking like undead can."

I like how you ignore that undead only have a chance to heal during an attack.  Its by no means guaranteed they will heal when they hit with their teeth.  Undead have to search for corpses to feed from outside of combat, and that's only a chance to feed.  Vampires have to search for hearts for healing outside of combat and blood if they want to remove infection.
Undead can heal and deal damage with a single AP use. Humans cannot. Undead can also heal with items if they so choose to outside of combat. Undead have better healing capabilities than humans do for these two reasons. Having someone heal you is also not guaranteed. What if you're separated from your group as a human? You can't bite an NPC to get your health back.

"Wider variety, but most heal very small amounts that aren't usually worth the AP to find and consume them."

Until you get the skill that improves your healing.
That skill only applies to Medkits and Antibiotics. The other healing items are completely useless.

Required for survival. Humans cannot heal as they attack like undead can, and therefore cannot heal during combat like undead can. This means humans can only realistically heal in between engagements and must also actively search for healing items.

You can hit the Use button any time you have AP and use a medkit, whether you are in or out of combat.  You don't have to be outside of combat to use them.  (And remember, humans have more AP, so its less of a waste to use one than it would be say, for a zombie to use brains.)
Uh. I don't see how this refutes my point. Your point was that humans have guaranteed healing items (so do undead). They have to have guaranteed healing items because they can't heal during combat. A human has to stop attacking to heal themselves, undead don't. Trying to heal while someone is actively attacking you will most likely get you killed and waste your medkit.

"Subjective. Undead don't have to find healing items because they can heal by attacking."

Once again, this is by no means a guaranteed heal.  "Can heal" is not the same as "does heal."  Its only a possibility of healing that doesn't happen 100% of the time.  And as I have previously stated, vampires MUST search for blood bags to prevent themselves from dying due to zombie infection.
Undead can find healing items pretty easily. So undead can not only heal as they attack, but they can supplement their health with easily found items as well. So... human healing isn't that great, now that you mention it.

"Required for survival. Human hiding spots are the most obvious hiding spots and humans are forced into certain buildings for supplies. Being able to fortify those buildings is necessary. Undead are not reliant on the map like humans are."

Barricades on a building are by no means a guaranteed indicator of human presence.  Suggesting otherwise is just being silly.
So, you're telling me barricades magically sprout up in random places on the map? I'm pretty sure a barricade is a guaranteed indicator of human presence.

"It's a fact alright. You will soon discover that should you ever try to hold a multi-tile building yourself."

I've done it in the past, and rather easily (until I was ganged up on.)  The point is, as a human, you shouldn't be trying to hold ANY building by yourself.  That's why they work better in groups.  A group of humans can (not guaranteed but it is possible)  hold a multi-tile location.  Saying its a fact they can't is just plain wrong.
Oh, so, you're telling me you 'held' the multi-tile building so long as you weren't being attacked? ... Okay. So you didn't hold it. Holding something doesn't mean squatting in it, it means being able to keep it yours by force and by defending it--something you just admitted you failed to do.

If you set out to hold a mall and one barricade falls, it's dinner time for the undead as they can all rush in and access any of the four tiles through one opening.
If you set out to hold four individual tiles and one barricade falls, the other three tiles are safe and the lost tile can be recaptured later on.
I repeat: you cannot hold multi-tile buildings. Any experienced player can confirm this.

"This is a game where you're meant to play as what you are converted into. If you want to pick and choose, then take the hit. Or don't, and play the cards you've been dealt."

Then you shouldn't have the option to be something else when you rise.  But since you do, and you've already put in the effort to gain that ability through gameplay, it shouldn't then cost you more to keep using that ability.  For example:  Humans can upgrade their ability to heal themselves to double what they can when they start the game.  But they aren't charged each time the use this ability, even though it cuts down on the amount of AP they have to use to heal.
Well I'm glad you agree undead shouldn't be able to get a choice when they get revived just like humans don't get a choice when they get killed, but it's a necessary evil. And, quite frankly, it's an unfair advantage over humans, and that is why it should (and does) come at a higher cost. Also your comparison makes no sense.

"False. Believe it or not, there's actually a point where skill and experience comes into play in the game."

No doubt there is.  But where you randomly hide your zombie isn't one of them.  Sorry to tell you.  You can sit here and say, "well you shouldn't hide it so close to so and so."  But where in the game does it tell you what "territory" is held by who?  How are you supposed to determine what the "less trafficked" areas of the map are? Its luck that you don't get found, plain and simple.  Suggesting its some sort of skill that a random player doesn't randomly come across you is just silly.
The game doesn't. Experience and skill does. Luck has a part in it, but not as great as you claim. People have behavioural patterns to begin with, but knowing how a specific person or type of player plays the game makes it increasingly more easy to determine where they would most likely hide or what buildings they would target. Suggesting that it's complete luck that skilled hunters find other players is naive.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 06:07:32 AM 12/01/13
"Undead can heal and deal damage with a single AP use. Humans cannot. Undead can also heal with items if they so choose to outside of combat. Undead have better healing capabilities than humans do for these two reasons. Having someone heal you is also not guaranteed. What if you're separated from your group as a human? You can't bite an NPC to get your health back."

Humans also have a bunch more AP and can afford to spend one during combat to heal.  Zombies are starting off at a serious AP disadvantage and its only BALANCED (that thing you say you're into) that they be able to heal and attack in one turn.

"That skill only applies to Medkits and Antibiotics. The other healing items are completely useless."

Until you don't have medkits and antibiotics handy.  Then they aren't so useless.  And frankly, its just your opinion that they're useless and not a fact.

"Uh. I don't see how this refutes my point. Your point was that humans have guaranteed healing items (so do undead). They have to have guaranteed healing items because they can't heal during combat. A human has to stop attacking to heal themselves, undead don't. Trying to heal while someone is actively attacking you will most likely get you killed and waste your medkit."

Once gain, humans have more AP so them spending one in combat to get 10-12 HP where a zombie MIGHT get 6 or 7 HP from a bite (not guaranteed) seems pretty balanced to me.  Especially since there isn't a turn order and you can attack or heal as fast as you can click a button on your keyboard or mouse.

"Undead can find healing items pretty easily. So undead can not only heal as they attack, but they can supplement their health with easily found items as well. So... human healing isn't that great, now that you mention it."

Sure I can find corpses as a zombie no problem.  Being able to feed from them is another matter altogether since its not guaranteed.   And finding human hearts and blood bags isn't as easy as you claim it is.  Often times its MORE DIFFICULT to find them than it is medkits and antibiotics at the hospitals.

"So, you're telling me barricades magically sprout up in random places on the map? I'm pretty sure a barricade is a guaranteed indicator of human presence."

That's not what I'm saying at all.  What I am saying is that it's pretty easy to barricade one place, leave it as a distraction, and go hide yourself somewhere else.  Just because a building is barricaded DOES NOT guarantee someone is hiding inside.  To say otherwise is just flat out wrong.  Hilariously so for someone who claims to be an expert at this game and its tactics....

"Oh, so, you're telling me you 'held' the multi-tile building so long as you weren't being attacked? ... Okay. So you didn't hold it. Holding something doesn't mean squatting in it, it means being able to keep it yours by force and by defending it--something you just admitted you failed to do."

Once again, that's not what I said at all.  Let's take a look at what I said instead of you putting words in my mouth, shall we?  I've done it in the past, and rather easily (until I was ganged up on.)  Where is it I stated anything like, " you 'held' the multi-tile building so long as you weren't being attacked."  What I DID say is that "I held it UNTIL I WAS GANGED UP ON."  Until then, no problems against individual attacks.  But go ahead and put those words in my mouth, just so you can feel right.  lol

"If you set out to hold a mall and one barricade falls, it's dinner time for the undead as they can all rush in and access any of the four tiles through one opening."

If you're working alone, yes.  Hence why I said its better as a group.

"I repeat: you cannot hold multi-tile buildings. Any experienced player can confirm this."

Just because YOU PERSONALLY CAN'T DO IT doesn't mean anyone else can't.  Just means you suck at defending by yourself.  And that's an issue you have to deal with on your own instead of expecting the game to cater to your weaknesses.

"The game doesn't. Experience and skill does. Luck has a part in it, but not as great as you claim. People have behavioral patterns to begin with, but knowing how a specific person or type of player plays the game makes it increasingly more easy to determine where they would most likely hide or what buildings they would target. Suggesting that it's complete luck that skilled hunters find other players is naive."

Ah, so we have a behavioral expert in our midst all of a sudden?  Get real dude.  The self-aggrandizing is getting ridiculous.  Suggesting that its pure skill that keeps you safe is just as naive.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 06:44:31 AM 12/01/13
Spoiler for courtesy, of course.

[spoiler=Responses to Atheist]
"Undead can heal and deal damage with a single AP use. Humans cannot. Undead can also heal with items if they so choose to outside of combat. Undead have better healing capabilities than humans do for these two reasons. Having someone heal you is also not guaranteed. What if you're separated from your group as a human? You can't bite an NPC to get your health back."

Humans also have a bunch more AP and can afford to spend one during combat to heal.  Zombies are starting off at a serious AP disadvantage and its only BALANCED (that thing you say you're into) that they be able to heal and attack in one turn.
This isn't about AP amounts. This is about group healing and why it's not an advantage, but a justified mechanic.

Healing during combat is not an option. You cannot heal during a live fight against a regular player. You will die. I mean, unless that player is on a slow connection or something.

"That skill only applies to Medkits and Antibiotics. The other healing items are completely useless."

Until you don't have medkits and antibiotics handy.  Then they aren't so useless.  And frankly, its just your opinion that they're useless and not a fact.
So you're telling me you actually carry around stacks of canned food and beer for the 1-2 HP they heal you...?

"Uh. I don't see how this refutes my point. Your point was that humans have guaranteed healing items (so do undead). They have to have guaranteed healing items because they can't heal during combat. A human has to stop attacking to heal themselves, undead don't. Trying to heal while someone is actively attacking you will most likely get you killed and waste your medkit."

Once gain, humans have more AP so them spending one in combat to get 10-12 HP where a zombie MIGHT get 6 or 7 HP from a bite (not guaranteed) seems pretty balanced to me.  Especially since there isn't a turn order and you can attack or heal as fast as you can click a button on your keyboard or mouse.
You cannot heal in combat. You have a few clicks worth of game refresh before you are either dead or have won. I don't know what kind of players you have been up against.

"Undead can find healing items pretty easily. So undead can not only heal as they attack, but they can supplement their health with easily found items as well. So... human healing isn't that great, now that you mention it."

Sure I can find corpses as a zombie no problem.  Being able to feed from them is another matter altogether since its not guaranteed.   And finding human hearts and blood bags isn't as easy as you claim it is.  Often times its MORE DIFFICULT to find them than it is medkits and antibiotics at the hospitals.
Zombies have several alternatives to hearts. Rotted meat, roadkill and dead rats are three examples. Vampires heal serious amounts of HP with fang attacks and only need bloodbags when infected, which is supposed to be difficult for a vampire to deal with in the first place.

"So, you're telling me barricades magically sprout up in random places on the map? I'm pretty sure a barricade is a guaranteed indicator of human presence."

That's not what I'm saying at all.  What I am saying is that it's pretty easy to barricade one place, leave it as a distraction, and go hide yourself somewhere else.  Just because a building is barricaded DOES NOT guarantee someone is hiding inside.  To say otherwise is just flat out wrong.  Hilariously so for someone who claims to be an expert at this game and its tactics....
You didn't say it was a guarantee that someone was hiding inside, you said it wasn't a guaranteed indicator of human presence. A barricade is human presence. And yeah, I'm arguing semantics because I'm having trouble taking you seriously.

"Oh, so, you're telling me you 'held' the multi-tile building so long as you weren't being attacked? ... Okay. So you didn't hold it. Holding something doesn't mean squatting in it, it means being able to keep it yours by force and by defending it--something you just admitted you failed to do."

Once again, that's not what I said at all.  Let's take a look at what I said instead of you putting words in my mouth, shall we?  I've done it in the past, and rather easily (until I was ganged up on.)  Where is it I stated anything like, " you 'held' the multi-tile building so long as you weren't being attacked."  What I DID say is that "I held it UNTIL I WAS GANGED UP ON."  Until then, no problems against individual attacks.  But go ahead and put those words in my mouth, just so you can feel right.  lol
Oh, so you think I'm talking about individual attacks? Yeah, no. Try holding a multi-tile building against a group of players trying to get in. It doesn't work. So yes, I am right; when you were actually attacked, things fell apart quickly. Your next two points are being ignored for this reason.

"The game doesn't. Experience and skill does. Luck has a part in it, but not as great as you claim. People have behavioral patterns to begin with, but knowing how a specific person or type of player plays the game makes it increasingly more easy to determine where they would most likely hide or what buildings they would target. Suggesting that it's complete luck that skilled hunters find other players is naive."

Ah, so we have a behavioral expert in our midst all of a sudden?  Get real dude.  The self-aggrandizing is getting ridiculous.  Suggesting that its pure skill that keeps you safe is just as naive.
Just because you're bad at the game doesn't mean no one else can be good at the game. I have played this game for years, and I have played other games for years in which predicting your opponents' potential movements and strategies was far more important than it is in this game. I have become rather adept at it.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Atheist on 07:42:35 AM 12/01/13
"Healing during combat is not an option. You cannot heal during a live fight against a regular player. You will die. I mean, unless that player is on a slow connection or something."

This means you assume the other person will hit 100% of the time and you will not.  That's just not how the game works and you know it.   Ignoring the amount of times characters miss doesn't validate your point. 

"So you're telling me you actually carry around stacks of canned food and beer for the 1-2 HP they heal you...?"

Yes.  I usually carry around a 6 pack of something or other, because they are much easier to find and in a pinch its some quick HP.  Its not the best solution, but when you're on a dry streak of medkits and antibiotics, its better than nothing.  Just because you think they don't have value doesn't mean they don't have value.

"You cannot heal in combat. You have a few clicks worth of game refresh before you are either dead or have won. I don't know what kind of players you have been up against."

No, YOU cannot heal in combat.  I have no trouble doing it when I'm playing as human and in a live fight.  Aside from that, live fights aren't exactly a common occurrence except against NPCs, who are already weaker than a normal character.

"Zombies have several alternatives to hearts. Rotted meat, roadkill and dead rats are three examples."

Things that have to be found for AP before consumed.  How is that different or better than humans again?

"Vampires heal serious amounts of HP with fang attacks and only need bloodbags when infected, which is supposed to be difficult for a vampire to deal with in the first place."

IF they heal from a fang attack, which as I've repeatedly stated, doesn't always heal when it hits. 

"You didn't say it was a guarantee that someone was hiding inside, you said it wasn't a guaranteed indicator of human presence. A barricade is human presence. And yeah, I'm arguing semantics because I'm having trouble taking you seriously."

A barricade is as much a sign of human presence as a regular old door is.  Just because its there doesn't mean anyone's home.  And in terms of the game, not your semantics, someone's presence is required for there to be a presence in the building.  Doesn't even have to be human.  No presence, nobody home.  End of story. 

"Oh, so you think I'm talking about individual attacks? Yeah, no. Try holding a multi-tile building against a group of players trying to get in. It doesn't work. So yes, I am right; when you were actually attacked, things fell apart quickly. Your next two points are being ignored for this reason."

That's hilarious.  Don't specify what you mean, and when the person responds to you, tell them they're wrong (and you're right) because they didn't answer to your unmentioned specifics.   Just wow...

"Just because you're bad at the game doesn't mean no one else can be good at the game."

Its hilarious that you say others are bad at a game that, by your own words, you can't even do what a "newbie" is capable of doing. (In terms of healing during combat and surviving, holding multi-tiles.)  You're soooo good at this someone who's only played for a few months can do that, but you, who've played for years, cannot.  Yea.  You're super awesome at this.  lol

"I have played this game for years, and I have played other games for years in which predicting your opponents' potential movements and strategies was far more important than it is in this game. I have become rather adept at it."

Good for you, you have no life.  How does that mean you're better at predicting what people you know nothing about are going to do? 

It doesn't.  You're talking out of your ass and self-aggrandizing again.  End of story.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 03:13:35 PM 12/01/13
[spoiler=Responses to Atheist]
"Healing during combat is not an option. You cannot heal during a live fight against a regular player. You will die. I mean, unless that player is on a slow connection or something."

This means you assume the other person will hit 100% of the time and you will not.  That's just not how the game works and you know it.   Ignoring the amount of times characters miss doesn't validate your point.

"You cannot heal in combat. You have a few clicks worth of game refresh before you are either dead or have won. I don't know what kind of players you have been up against."

No, YOU cannot heal in combat.  I have no trouble doing it when I'm playing as human and in a live fight.  Aside from that, live fights aren't exactly a common occurrence except against NPCs, who are already weaker than a normal character.
You can try to push this point all you want, but it comes down to the fact that healing during a live fight is not a good idea and should never be done. You cannot heal during a live fight. If you have to heal, you should run and hide to do so and return to the fight afterward.

All you're doing now is encouraging new players to make stupid choices.

It's not even your main point anyway. You still haven't proven why group healing is somehow an advantage.

"So you're telling me you actually carry around stacks of canned food and beer for the 1-2 HP they heal you...?"

Yes.  I usually carry around a 6 pack of something or other, because they are much easier to find and in a pinch its some quick HP.  Its not the best solution, but when you're on a dry streak of medkits and antibiotics, its better than nothing.  Just because you think they don't have value doesn't mean they don't have value.
Well if that's how you want to waste your AP I guess.

"Zombies have several alternatives to hearts. Rotted meat, roadkill and dead rats are three examples."

Things that have to be found for AP before consumed.  How is that different or better than humans again?

"Vampires heal serious amounts of HP with fang attacks and only need bloodbags when infected, which is supposed to be difficult for a vampire to deal with in the first place."

IF they heal from a fang attack, which as I've repeatedly stated, doesn't always heal when it hits. 
Do you not even remember your own points...? Humans cannot heal with bite attacks, they must rely solely on healing items that are difficult to find. Undead can heal with bite attacks and items that are easy to find. Undead do not have to use healing items, but they can. Humans don't have a choice. This is not an advantage for humans. If anything, undead have the advantage with healing, as they should.

"You didn't say it was a guarantee that someone was hiding inside, you said it wasn't a guaranteed indicator of human presence. A barricade is human presence. And yeah, I'm arguing semantics because I'm having trouble taking you seriously."

A barricade is as much a sign of human presence as a regular old door is.  Just because its there doesn't mean anyone's home.  And in terms of the game, not your semantics, someone's presence is required for there to be a presence in the building.  Doesn't even have to be human.  No presence, nobody home.  End of story.
A barricade, especially a large one, means a human has been in the area. That's a presence. If you find a large barricade out in the middle of nowhere, there's a good chance that it means there's a human inside.

"Oh, so you think I'm talking about individual attacks? Yeah, no. Try holding a multi-tile building against a group of players trying to get in. It doesn't work. So yes, I am right; when you were actually attacked, things fell apart quickly. Your next two points are being ignored for this reason."

That's hilarious.  Don't specify what you mean, and when the person responds to you, tell them they're wrong (and you're right) because they didn't answer to your unmentioned specifics.   Just wow...
This doesn't refute my point. Quite frankly, nothing you've said so far has refuted any of my points. Multi-tile buildings cannot be held.

"Just because you're bad at the game doesn't mean no one else can be good at the game."

Its hilarious that you say others are bad at a game that, by your own words, you can't even do what a "newbie" is capable of doing. (In terms of healing during combat and surviving, holding multi-tiles.)  You're soooo good at this someone who's only played for a few months can do that, but you, who've played for years, cannot.  Yea.  You're super awesome at this.  lol

"I have played this game for years, and I have played other games for years in which predicting your opponents' potential movements and strategies was far more important than it is in this game. I have become rather adept at it."

Good for you, you have no life.  How does that mean you're better at predicting what people you know nothing about are going to do? 

It doesn't.  You're talking out of your ass and self-aggrandizing again.  End of story.
I'm gonna go ahead and refute Atheist's points. Discussions and debates are healthy for the soul. I just hope he doesn't resort to calling me names and using strings of expletives again.
[/spoiler]

Well I think we can all agree that Atheist has no idea what he's talking about half of the time. Maybe more than half of the time.

He completely ignores that I have more experience and knowledge about this game than he does, and he hides behind his newbie ignorance to push his points forward.

Encouraging new players to heal during live fights? Encouraging new players to actually stock up and waste AP on canned food and beer? Encouraging new players in attempts to hold multi-tile buildings? I mean, really, at least the last point is common knowledge as all previous attempts to hold multi-tile buildings by several groups, including my own, have failed miserably.

I'm done.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: berz on 04:59:28 PM 12/03/13
Well ok.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 12:09:56 AM 12/04/13
OLD POLL


Which alternative system do you feel would best fix the Power Plant?
Alternative 1 - 3 (15.8%)
Alternative 2 - 7 (36.8%)
Alternative 3 - 0 (0%)
Alternative 4 - 2 (10.5%)
The current system is fine. - 7 (36.8%)
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: FRANKIE 4 FINGERS on 12:12:15 AM 12/04/13
fix it
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 02:16:44 AM 12/04/13
I posted this in stinto chat, but I think the plant could do with being more centralised, so it's not quite such a trek from whatever bases people erect.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Mary on 05:27:20 AM 12/04/13
I actually had another idea. I think it's better but may require marginally more work. Plus it frees up a 2x2 tile building for a Serling Servals football stadium!
Electrical Substations. They're one tile each and each suburb gets one.
Make it just a flat 2 or 3AP for [Flip Master Breaker].

Here are the things I think about it:
*It provides a much closer, more easily maintainable objective it could be more actively fought over.
*It provides LOCAL objectives. Maybe a vampire group wants to maintain the destruction of their local substation for ease of hiding and humans want to maintain the good condition of theirs. They both fight over them and who knows, maybe we get some gameplay other than Lonewolf deathmatch
*They'd need to be made centralish. As something you can protect. So an enemy group can't just dash in and destroy it.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Kraufen on 06:57:52 AM 12/04/13
I actually had another idea. I think it's better but may require marginally more work. Plus it frees up a 2x2 tile building for a Serling Servals football stadium!
Electrical Substations. They're one tile each and each suburb gets one.
Make it just a flat 2 or 3AP for [Flip Master Breaker].

Here are the things I think about it:
*It provides a much closer, more easily maintainable objective it could be more actively fought over.
*It provides LOCAL objectives. Maybe a vampire group wants to maintain the destruction of their local substation for ease of hiding and humans want to maintain the good condition of theirs. They both fight over them and who knows, maybe we get some gameplay other than Lonewolf deathmatch
*They'd need to be made centralish. As something you can protect. So an enemy group can't just dash in and destroy it.
I kinda like this actually
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Týr on 03:43:27 PM 12/04/13
That's a great idea. Seriously.
Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: dbizzle on 07:35:10 PM 12/05/13
I actually had another idea. I think it's better but may require marginally more work. Plus it frees up a 2x2 tile building for a Serling Servals football stadium!
Electrical Substations. They're one tile each and each suburb gets one.
Make it just a flat 2 or 3AP for [Flip Master Breaker].

Here are the things I think about it:
*It provides a much closer, more easily maintainable objective it could be more actively fought over.
*It provides LOCAL objectives. Maybe a vampire group wants to maintain the destruction of their local substation for ease of hiding and humans want to maintain the good condition of theirs. They both fight over them and who knows, maybe we get some gameplay other than Lonewolf deathmatch
*They'd need to be made centralish. As something you can protect. So an enemy group can't just dash in and destroy it.

All of this. I wouldn't mind seeing more buildings in Serling that have a purpose for being there, and a stadium/ multiple smaller plants would help flesh out this oddly situated map.

Also. Perhaps this is a stupid suggestion, but maybe make a skill for knowing how to turn on the power plant (It's not like those things have a big button inside saying "on") or have a necessary item/rare drop you have to pick up, like a master cable or something, to turn on the PP. I mean, if you make it 1 AP to turn on, might as well make the process a bit of an adventure.

Title: Re: Maintaining the Power Plant
Post by: Kraufen on 07:00:18 AM 12/06/13
Actually it wouldn't be bad for there to be a skill for the undead to turn it off