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Author Topic: Death should mean something  (Read 22303 times)

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Týr

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on: 11:10:00 AM 11/21/13
Giving certain people exceptions to a rule is the worst thing you could possibly do when making a decision like this. It also has no justification.

Death is harsh when you're new as it is, making it a little harsher won't change that. Death should be easier to deal with the higher level you are--and it is--but giving new players an exception is taking that in the opposite direction.

You commit or you don't.
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Kraufen

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on: 01:07:27 PM 11/21/13
Do you know how often somebody can die when they are new player?

Example

Level 1 nerf herder joins game
Immediately begins to wallop on either A. A player or b. a npc because well, they wanna kill some shit because they wanna gain xp and do something
What generally happens is that NPC will stomp them due to the fact that most players do not have healing items when they start and usually cannot contain themselves. Yes I know its their own fault and should have thought "Oh can I actually beat my foe" but that is the reality of what happens when somebody first joins.
So then they go to stand and suddenly lose their 15 ap. That is about close to a quarter of their ap...gone. And being new players they will probably die multiple times after that because newbies.
So once they realize they have to wait at least 25 minutes to half an hour on a normal day in order to get up, they are either gonna stick around, or more likely log out, think about playing again but then forget about the game entirely.
Sure, you might not want them to play, but I do. We already have a small enough player base as is. Its already hard enough to keep players as is.
I know you don't really care about my idea as it breaks the rules, but as a level 1, I don't think I would have stuck around after being curbstomped by somebody like myself or frankie and then having to wait for 30 minutes in order just to play again
I would either continuously make a new character like a roguelike which this game is not, or I would just stop trying after the third time it happened or so.
 
I just don't want this to be scrollwars where it becomes so newbie unfriendly that its almost impossible to keep new players.
 



Týr

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on: 01:22:41 PM 11/21/13
Do you know how often somebody can die when they are new player?

Example

Level 1 nerf herder joins game
Immediately begins to wallop on either A. A player or b. a npc because well, they wanna kill some shit because they wanna gain xp and do something
What generally happens is that NPC will stomp them due to the fact that most players do not have healing items when they start and usually cannot contain themselves. Yes I know its their own fault and should have thought "Oh can I actually beat my foe" but that is the reality of what happens when somebody first joins.
The bold statement makes this entire section of the argument invalid, but I'll continue.
So then they go to stand and suddenly lose their 15 ap. That is about close to a quarter of their ap...gone.
My suggestion was for 10 AP to stand on a normal death. Newbies cannot resist revives.
And being new players they will probably die multiple times after that because newbies.
So once they realize they have to wait at least 25 minutes to half an hour on a normal day in order to get up, they are either gonna stick around, or more likely log out, think about playing again but then forget about the game entirely.
This already happens. Some people do not enjoy games with action points, some do. They also do not 'have to wait 25 minutes to stand up'. I mean, they do if they have 0 AP, but why would they want to stand then?

Sure you could argue they'd have more AP to use after 25 minutes with 3 AP to stand, but... that's only 10 AP. So they'd have 7 if they stood up at 0. So chances are they would just die again, and are better of waiting until they have a good amount of AP anyway.

Sure, you might not want them to play, but I do. We already have a small enough player base as is. Its already hard enough to keep players as is.
The game has trouble keeping players because it has flaws (amongst other reasons). Death having no real consequences is one of those flaws. You can either be too afraid to change something because it might make a handful of people leave, or you can take a chance and see if it works. It's not like changing AP values is difficult for Mo/Mammon to do in the first place.
I know you don't really care about my idea as it breaks the rules, but as a level 1, I don't think I would have stuck around after being curbstomped by somebody like myself or frankie and then having to wait for 30 minutes in order just to play again
I would either continuously make a new character like a roguelike which this game is not, or I would just stop trying after the third time it happened or so.
Some people already make new characters when they run out of AP, and some people just aren't fit to play this kind of game. You shouldn't base your decisions around a demographic the game does not innately appeal to.
I just don't want this to be scrollwars where it becomes so newbie unfriendly that its almost impossible to keep new players.
And I don't want this game to get more stale than it already is and flake away in the wind because people are too afraid to occasionally make extreme decisions to fix a problem that has existed for far too long.
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Kraufen

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on: 01:35:53 PM 11/21/13
Oh okay.
One thing I missed was the 10 ap part :hurr:. Instead I read the 15-20 and for some reason thought that 15 for regular humans 20 for resist rez.
If its 10 for regular standing, 15 for resist I can mostly get behind that.

In a way most of my argument is invalid I suppose. Other than yes some new players can be incredibly stupid and try to stand up with just 10 ap anyways.
As for the part of demographic that does not appeal to, some people can be swayed away from that notion and enjoy the game though this might kill that.
But yes 10 ap is a lot more reasonable then. Carry on I suppose.



Atheist

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on: 03:06:29 PM 11/21/13
What if you just lost either all or a random portion of your stuff that wasn't stored in your backpack when you're killed?



Týr

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on: 03:40:00 PM 11/21/13
What if you just lost either all or a random portion of your stuff that wasn't stored in your backpack when you're killed?

Machetes, bladed gloves, other special/holiday items, bought and renamed items, etc. would need protection.

Maybe if it was the other way, where things stored in your backpack (therefore 'easily' obtainable supplies such as ammo and healing items) would be looted instead. Maybe say a random amount of any one slot. Even then there would be no clear way of preventing someone from creating an alt solely made to search and store medkits just to be farmed by friends for easy medkits.

In any case, no, that would be infuriating.
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Atheist

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on: 04:20:16 PM 11/21/13
Machetes, bladed gloves, other special/holiday items, bought and renamed items, etc. would need protection.

Maybe if it was the other way, where things stored in your backpack (therefore 'easily' obtainable supplies such as ammo and healing items) would be looted instead. Maybe say a random amount of any one slot. Even then there would be no clear way of preventing someone from creating an alt solely made to search and store medkits just to be farmed by friends for easy medkits.

In any case, no, that would be infuriating.

So what if there was a choice?  For example:

Stand for 3 AP:  Lose x items.  Not looted, just gone.
Stand for 10 AP: Keep everything. 



Týr

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on: 04:38:37 PM 11/21/13
So what if there was a choice?  For example:

Stand for 3 AP:  Lose x items.  Not looted, just gone.
Stand for 10 AP: Keep everything.

The first option sounds like a fair trade, but it's not. In fact it's too unfair for me to agree with. There is very little chance that you'll be able to find what items you've lost with that 7 AP you 'saved'. You aren't preserving much with that method. If anything it would just trick most players into setting themselves further back than they would have been.

In fact no combination I can think of would be much better. Even losing 100 XP or so would be setting you back further than just losing 10 AP.
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Atheist

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on: 06:58:04 PM 11/21/13
The first option sounds like a fair trade, but it's not. In fact it's too unfair for me to agree with. There is very little chance that you'll be able to find what items you've lost with that 7 AP you 'saved'. You aren't preserving much with that method. If anything it would just trick most players into setting themselves further back than they would have been.

In fact no combination I can think of would be much better. Even losing 100 XP or so would be setting you back further than just losing 10 AP.

Yea those were just arbitrary numbers for the example instead of me putting x for the value.



Jonathan Hunter

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on: 12:40:48 PM 11/22/13
Why don't we just start with the 10/15 AP to stand/resist, and see how it works out? We can always continue to discuss and implement a new system if it comes down to a majority favor.



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on: 03:02:31 PM 11/22/13
The key to any new thing is that it shouldn't be complex. Things spawning a bunch of different options, changes, etc. for an unneeded result and so forth.

Death having a penalty is helpful, but it's not necessary to enjoy/play the game - and it doesn't add to the 'fun'. It lets someone inflict a penalty on someone else, but I doubt either party will be jumping for joy over the really fun feautre.

So yeah, changes are fine and a stiffening (lulz) of the penalty is fine, but when we get into options, selecting different outcomes, trading one thing for another, or re-learning things it starts to seem like the game is purposefully messing with the player just to make death meaningful.
If I should live until I wake, I pray the web my death to fake.



Týr

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on: 03:23:29 PM 11/22/13
Yeah. I agree. I believe an increased AP cost to stand is the only real way to go about it.
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Kraufen

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on: 05:12:34 PM 11/22/13
I'm fine with 10/15 to stand/resist



Týr

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on: 11:56:09 PM 11/22/13
I'd go 10/20.
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Atheist

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on: 06:07:41 AM 11/24/13
The only drawback I see to the current increase in AP cost is that its bound to drive some people away from the game due to wait times.

Currently, if you are at zero AP when you are killed, that's at least 30 minutes of waiting around doing nothing. (25 waiting to be able to stand, 5 more just to have two actions.)  And that's if you don't immediately get killed by another player or NPC after standing, thus having to wait even longer to really do anything.  Not everyone has time to just sit around at their computer for half hour spells waiting to be able to play a game.  People's attention spans aren't what they used to be.  There's a good chance they'll just start looking to other games and websites to pass the time while bored.