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Author Topic: AP and HP values  (Read 4853 times)

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Mary

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on: 04:09:41 AM 12/01/13
I don't think it's any secret that I think (know) it would be for the better if they were equalised between races.
More so now after recent changes to both AP regen rate and the cost to standing.
So I've finally gotten around to listing the reason.

  • With the AP regen rate increase you hit the cap faster. Sure you could play twice as often, but that's not a luxury afforded to all. And it's been stated before that the game was always intended as a casual BBG.
  • Playing after waking up or getting back from work or any other extended break, humans and vampires have more AP to spend. Say a human and zombie player both only logged in once a day for a week. At the end that human player has had 140 extra AP to use. That's significant, and the amount increases if they log in twice or three times a day. 
  • The cost to stand is, by a fraction of your max AP, higher for zombies and vampires than humans. With the increase the cost is significant. Especially if you wake up dead.
  • HP is not worth as much as AP. It's CERTAINLY not worth a 1:1 ratio. It doesn't regenerate so you have to spend AP to even make use of having a higher pool. In the only situation where having higher HP might be useful is an active battle, and there it's more likely that AP or ammo would be far more useful.
  • When an enemy can strip you of 10-20HP with a single attack, a single AP, it becomes clear just how useless it is.
  • And furthermore, it's even a bonus to the enemy. They receive bonus XP for killing you.

Sure, some things would need rebalancing. But I feel the game would be best if the simplest and most important attributes were equal and then the game was balanced around that rather than trying to balanced the game around something that is fundamentally unequal.

Either that or the whole class system needs to be reworked. Like zombies being heavy hitters that can't move as far, and humans being actually reliant on items instead of being actually pretty powerful with a nightstick or machete.

I mean vampires and zombies are practically the same class except one can see through walls and one can hide all over the place.

Edit: Forgot to make it a poll.
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Atheist

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on: 04:22:41 AM 12/01/13
I'm all for this.  Making AP amounts and expenditures equitable between the races would be fantastic.  Sure, it would probably cause some species re-balancing like you said.  But the game could probably use that anyways. Whether it be changing percentages on things like attacking, searching, etc; or redoing (or adding/subtracting to) some of the available/existing skills.



Mary

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on: 04:28:18 AM 12/01/13
I was thinking along the lines of a skill that halves the cost of searching for humans, or had a chance for a search attempt to have no cost, or a chance to find twice as many of an item.
» You throw a tantrum, but all you seem to accomplish is slight disarray.



Atheist

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on: 04:40:38 AM 12/01/13
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a little more distinction in the effect a type of attack has if they really wanted to get into rebalancing.

For example:

Sledgehammers doing their damage, but also causing a higher chance for the victim to miss their next attack or be unable to move away from the tile.  (Since getting hit with a sledgehammer would likely make someone a bit woozy and uncoordinated).

As a human, being able to attack from one tile away with pistols and rifles, but at a reduced chance to hit.  Being able to shoot out the windows of a building at anything outside would be cool too, but I feel something like that should only be reserved for the multistory buildings you can also jump from, and at reduced chance to hit.

The one thing I've never understood about this game is why vampires seem to lose all of their intelligence when they are vamped.  Most representations of vampires in history/culture they are cunning, intelligent monsters.  Maybe giving them a skill or ability that reflects this would help?





Týr

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on: 05:10:30 AM 12/01/13
I disagree with having HP equalised between the races, however...

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing the different race dynamics enhanced, and the AP cap raised to a flat 100 AP for all three races.

Zombies that deal low physical damage but have an arsenal of biohazard-related passive effects, and have 100 HP.
Vampires that deal medium damage and are re-worked to be hunters that prowl the darkness, and have 75 HP.
Humans that deal high damage with firearms and medium with melee, relying much more heavily on items, but have 50 HP.

A proper combat triangle needs to be established. Humans -> Zombies -> Vampires -> Humans, given the stats proposed above.

This would of course require an extensive re-work of item stats and AP costs, as already stated. "High" and "low" damage would need to be figured out.
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Mary

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on: 05:24:04 AM 12/01/13
It would have to be extensively reworked. With how useless HP cap is at the moment, humans would far and away be getting the best deal there.

Like what's the point of being a 100HP zombie if a human can still kill you in just as many AP? Or less if he simply invests AP the day before into finding ammo and such?

I agree with some sort of combat rework though. Not neccessarily a triangle. Like it seems that zombies with their strength in numbers and stuff should be best at taking down barricades. Vampires should definitely be the best lone hunters.
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Kraufen

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on: 05:36:39 AM 12/01/13
I find most zombie players do not work together, which is dumb. If I was zombies I would walk about in massive mobs



Mary

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on: 05:43:23 AM 12/01/13
That takes a lot of coordination.
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Kraufen

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on: 05:49:14 AM 12/01/13
Yes but it is key to being successful as a zombie group.

I remember ronin facebreakers would use this tactic in their stint in hellrising. It was super effective and the only reason why they stopped playing was because of that long server crash where we were forced to play dead frontier...urgh



Týr

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on: 05:51:57 AM 12/01/13
Like what's the point of being a 100HP zombie if a human can still kill you in just as many AP? Or less if he simply invests AP the day before into finding ammo and such?
You get to be a zombie! :hurr:

But no really, zombies (and the other two) would have to be much different incarnations from what they are now for what I have in my head to work.

In any case I agree that something should be changed, but I feel like equalising the HP values would be taking away too much from their identities. But I suppose it would largely depend on how the skills are re-done as well.

I agree with some sort of combat rework though. Not neccessarily a triangle. Like it seems that zombies with their strength in numbers and stuff should be best at taking down barricades. Vampires should definitely be the best lone hunters.
Yeah I always thought it was weird. For the longest time I thought zombies were the ones that did damage to buildings as they attacked and vampires were the ones that damaged the buildings directly. You can imagine my surprise when it was the opposite. It still doesn't seem right and it should be the other way around.



Regarding zombies working together, they would easily be the dominant race in HR if they did. For real. If a good group of zombies started working together, it would be over for everyone.
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Mary

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on: 06:12:05 AM 12/01/13
as in more coordination than anything else in the game. It's not just like choosing some adjacent buildings and saying "keep these as barricaded as you can"

I'm recruiting to see what I can do for my beloved zombies, but at any rate, that's beside the point of the thread you guysssssss.
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Týr

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on: 06:23:09 AM 12/01/13
as in more coordination than anything else in the game. It's not just like choosing some adjacent buildings and saying "keep these as barricaded as you can"
Now now, Mary. The amount of coordination and maintenance that goes into running a good human group is far beyond 'just keep these barricaded', but I'm sure you understand that and are just making sweeping statements.


Anyway, I don't know whether to vote yes or no because I don't really know what I'm voting yes or no to. What if I vote yes but I hate the outcome but it still happened because I voted yes? I think there needs to be a few more options with specifics or something.
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Mary

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on: 06:39:52 AM 12/01/13
I realised how inspecific it was after rereading it just now. Wrote I'm bad. Changed now, hopefully it's better now.
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FRANKIE 4 FINGERS

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on: 12:24:38 PM 12/01/13
im down for an ap cap boost. but if its too high then its no good. doesn't make sense to have so much ap a single person could clear the whole map and kill everything in his path along the way. though having more ap would keep players active longer. i dunno
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Týr

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on: 02:45:22 PM 12/01/13
im down for an ap cap boost. but if its too high then its no good. doesn't make sense to have so much ap a single person could clear the whole map and kill everything in his path along the way. though having more ap would keep players active longer. i dunno
It would be a matter of tweaking AP costs on utilities. So you would have more AP to spend but not as much to use. If that makes sense.
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